We use cookies that are essential for the proper functioning of this website. Please click "Accept" to help us improve the usefulness of other cookies. Learn about our use of cookies and cooperation with selected social media and trusted analytics partners here, learn more about cookies, and open in a new tab.

Digital subverts the old model. Reshape your business.

Most conversions have failed. Flip the odds.

Practical resources to help leaders enter the next normal state: guides, tools, checklists, interviews, etc.

Our mission is to help leaders in multiple industries gain a deeper understanding of the global economy.

Since 1964, our flagship business publication has been defining and informing senior management’s agenda.

Practical resources to help leaders enter the next normal state: guides, tools, checklists, interviews, etc.

Inspire, empower and sustain actions to promote the economic development of black communities around the world

In this episode of the McKinsey on Startups podcast, McKinsey senior editor Daniel Eisenberg spoke with Maximilian Bittner, chairman and CEO of the leading global online fashion resale market, Vestiaire Collective. The edited transcript of their conversation is as follows.

To listen to more shows from McKinsey about startups, please subscribe on Apple, Audible, Google Podcasts, Spotify or Stitcher.

Daniel Eisenberg: Hello everyone, and welcome to McKinsey Startups. My name is Daniel Eisenberg.

Buying used clothes is far from a new phenomenon. Every generation of teenagers and young people in their 20s will always spend time combing through the shelves of thrift stores or flea markets. But in the past decade, the emergence of an online peer-to-peer fashion resale market has turned the buying and selling of used clothes into a more mainstream activity. Even before the pandemic, the growing interest in sustainability and the circular economy helped drive the momentum of this grassroots e-commerce brand; once COVID-19 started, more and more people who were forced to stay at home found out Go through the closet yourself to see what potential products they have to offer.

Today, we are very happy to be able to talk to the head of one of the leading start-ups in this field. Max Bittner is a tech entrepreneur and CEO, Vestiaire Collective, a community-driven global second-hand fashion platform, he joined the platform in early 2019. Seven years ago, Bittner founded Lazada, Southeast Asia's top online shopping destination. In 2016, with the rapid development of Lazada, Alibaba Group acquired a controlling stake. Two years later, Bittner changed from the position of CEO to consultant. Early in his career, before joining McKinsey & Company in Germany, Bittner worked in the investment banking department of Morgan Stanley in London.

Max, thank you very much for joining us today.

Max Bittner: Thank you very much for inviting me.

Daniel Eisenberg: Please tell us about Vestiaire Collective and what it hopes to achieve as a company.

Max Bittner: In general, Vestiaire's philosophy is that we want to be an inspiring and trustworthy fashion resale platform. We are truly committed to changing the industry forever by making fashion as sustainable as people hope, and promoting the fashion circle as an alternative to wasteful behavior in the industry. We operate in approximately 80 markets, have more than 10 million members, and we are indeed the only truly high-quality and popular fashion global resale platform.

Daniel Eisenberg: As you pointed out, sustainability in a circular economy is a key part of your business model. Tell us which consumers are promoting sustainable development and thus promote your development. For example, how are the fashion-related shopping habits of millennials and Gen Z consumers different from previous generations?

Max Bittner: Before I start, I think the important thing is to take a step back and ask, what is fashion? Fashion is amazing in creating desires and turning dreams into reality. This is why Vestiaire was founded by people who really love fashion. But let us also face it. Fashion contributes to some of the world’s biggest problems: overconsumption, overproduction, climate change, professional ethics, etc.

It is indeed at a point of great change that needs to adapt, because consumers expect it to adapt. To be honest, the only truly sustainable clothes, if you are not naked, may have been hung in your wardrobe instead of buying it.

What we really want to do is to encourage people to understand the value of the assets they hang in the closet. They will not only consider the product at the initial purchase price, but also the price after the first purchase.

This really revolves around education. The core of the circular economy is to explain to people that there is still life after the initial purchase, and maybe their trash is someone else's treasure.

Daniel Eisenberg: Have you noticed generational differences?

Max Bittner: I don't think there are generational differences in the way people consume fundamentally. I think the speed at which people accept new trends varies. Another example of being close to home for me is the way and speed of people using mobile phones, and the way they use mobile phones for e-commerce and shopping. In Asia, the app has become more important than in Europe or the United States, because there is no other choice. You have a very hungry population, a young population, and they want to get the same things as the West.

This does not mean that Westerners do not use apps. You and I use WhatsApp. You and I use mobile phones to do a lot of things. As far as e-commerce is concerned, we have good choices. Therefore, the actual adoption of new things takes longer.

Fashion resale is not a new industry. But with this application, it is even more gamified. And I think young people accept new things faster, because their consumption patterns are not necessarily related to the past.

So I think this is faster adoption, but not necessarily a different mentality. I think when people start to come into contact with second-hand, they will understand. In the end, this is a very simple concept and you can get a better price. Your behavior is less polluted, so it has a very high feel-good factor. It comes from young adopters. But I think it spread very fast.

Daniel Eisenberg: I ​​kind of want to know the goal-driven aspect, the sustainability part of things-if you believe it is more attractive to young people nowadays.

Max Bittner: I think every young person will go through this stage at some point, "Gosh, we must save the planet tomorrow." I was born in Germany in the late 70s, but I grew up in the 80s when the Green Party started Enter the government. They closed the highway on Sunday so that people would not use their cars. We started to collect all kinds of garbage and brought them to the school for sorting.

I think young people still have better dreams. I think the sad thing is that as people pay more and more attention to the real world and the real issues of feeding children and ensuring everyone’s health, sometimes the planet we need to save becomes secondary.

But I think what is happening now and why this is more important and central than ever before is because we are now beginning to experience the first real impact that global warming actually means.

In the past, it was very conceptual. Now, looking at the weather events that occurred, there is almost undeniable evidence that it is related to global warming.

I think now, we have no choice. This is why I joined Vestiaire. This is the bottom line. Because when I look back at the huge transformational changes that e-commerce has brought to the world, and then I have to look for something new, I really just take a step back and say, "Well, what will be the most decisive thing in the future 20, 30 What will happen to the world in 40 years?” Ideally, you do something related to this trend, because when you have wind, things will be much easier. The only truly large-scale global trend I can foresee is global warming.

Daniel Eisenberg: After Lazada, you can say that you can take the position of CEO in another company and get involved in any aspect of e-commerce. And you chose Vestiaire. So it sounds like its sustainability is in some respects the real deciding factor.

Max Bitner: Of course. I have no clear plan whether to establish a new business or join an existing business. I think e-commerce is what I know, and I think it has a long way to go. I started to look for that field, and Vestiaire's opportunity came. I did not look for it specifically. But when I came into contact with it, I realized that it can give me a higher goal-especially after the success of Lazada and Lazada-not only GMV (gross value) growth and valuation, but also There are some of these more prominent things that people are fascinated by now.

I now have three daughters. I have been very lucky. So I think this gives me an excellent opportunity to give back, to apply what I have learned over the years to something that can actually bring good results, without having to make compromises, be ambitious and do good deeds.

I think people often face a choice between doing good for themselves and doing good for the planet. The beauty of our business model is that it is circular. Therefore, when we do well, we will also do good for the planet.

Daniel Eisenberg: To some extent, is its sustainability part of you?

Max Bitner: Not really. The investors who contacted me at the time regarded it as a second-hand luxury fashion company. I think people have yet to see how great the opportunity for sustainable development is. I really have to admit that I didn't see it either. I think this is an unknown number. In five or six years, anything that helps save the planet is good business. But the speed at which it appears now absolutely surprises me.

However, it has always been part of the founder's vision. Fanny [Moizant] and Sophie [Hersan] and I talk about this every day because I think it is really at the core of our work. But in the past few years, it has indeed become clearer, just as this topic has become so important and central.

Daniel Eisenberg: Obviously, this epidemic is also helping to stimulate the fashion resale trade. People are trapped at home, looking at their closets, and thinking about downsizing rather than going shopping.

Max Bittner: Yes, COVID is indeed driving digital adoption. Most importantly, people are at home and have to stay busy in many ways. However, many people also face real uncertainties, including health uncertainties and financial uncertainties.

This goes back to the concept that fashion is an asset, not a consumable-if you treat it the right way, if you don’t destroy the clothes you own, or if you don’t buy cheap fashion that really falls apart, wear or wash three times Rear. Therefore, by selling the wardrobe and profiting from it, they can also alleviate some financial problems. In terms of buying, yes, the stores are closed, but you can buy cheaper things, and you can still afford the same brand. So you don't have to make this compromise.

I think we do benefit from COVID, even though it is so bad. But most importantly, I think COVID has caused a comeback in science, and doctors and scientists have become the main voices people start to listen to again. Once you start to hear how terrible COVID is, and then the potential impact of global warming worsens exponentially, I think it just wakes everyone up very, very rudely, right?

Daniel Eisenberg: Yes. I definitely think this is a reminder of risks.

Shifting gears, the booming resale fashion market is clearly overcrowded. How do you differentiate yourself? What do you think is the most unique element of the Vestiaire business model?

Max Bittner: Yes, this space is very competitive. If you look at today's players, most of them were established after the last financial crisis. Vestiaire was founded in 2009. Tradesy was established around the same time. RealReal too. So now most of these players are over ten years old. But I think they have become more apparent now through the positive momentum enjoyed by the entire space.

Now, people have become more nuanced when thinking about resale, because there is no resale model, and there are very differentiated products that can meet the needs of different customers. I really rarely see them as competitors. If you consider who our competitors are, then the number of people who buy first-hand clothes is much larger than those who compete for second-hand clothes. I really think that all of us are in the common education market. I joked, but what I like the most is that my competitors launch large-scale TV campaigns, because it means I don’t need to explain to people how second-hand goods work. Then I can focus on my differences, right?

So back to your question, how do we differ, we really believe in the size of the market, the size of the variety. We want to provide the widest possible assortment of items that we consider to be very suitable for second-hand use. And those are more high-end projects. I think the whole point of second-hand goods is not to increase consumption, because you can buy and sell very quickly and therefore buy more, but in fact you buy less but the quality of the purchase is higher. Therefore, if you want to buy higher-quality products, you will soon turn to more luxurious and higher-end fashion. So we really focus on this more high-end fashion space. We hope to provide as wide a variety as possible so that people can really be inspired and find things they can't find anymore, the whole concept of Alibaba caves, treasure hunting.

Then we want to make our model adaptable so that order economics can be applied to this broad classification. The order economy of the 10,000 Euro Birkin bag is very different from the order economy of the 150 Euro Isabel Marant dress. Especially if you send it cross-border to one of the 80 markets where customers can buy. So I really adjusted the model to make it more flexible. We do provide advanced authentication for every project and every customer who needs it. But we have now adjusted our business model and said: "Not every customer necessarily values ​​this kind of identity verification service." So we allow them to opt out of this kind of identity verification and do what we call direct shipping.

This is the key part of how we truly distinguish ourselves from the two major competitors. One is players with heavy assets and hands-on operations who try to control inventory and identity verification as much as possible, while the other end is very open, relaxed, and peer-to-peer players such as Poshmarks, Depops and the wines of this world. We put ourselves in the middle, although still focusing on the higher-end basket sizes.

We believe that customers are not artificially separated by business models as these business models might want. Few people only own luxury goods, and very few people only own fast fashion. If you look at it from the perspective of the largest and broadest consumer, they have a lot of everyday wear. They have some fast fashion. But they also have these investment products. So if you really want to cater to that target customer, you need to be able to provide these two services. If you wish, we are the only one who provides this identity verification service, but you can choose not to provide services at certain price points. In this way, it is economical and effective for both our customers and us.

The third area where we really want to differentiate ourselves is to build a very engaging gamified social commerce experience. This is really what I learned from Asia and Southeast Asia. Of course I worked with Lazada, but I also learned from Alibaba. Alibaba’s e-commerce has just developed slightly different from the United States. Amazon’s The way is very dogmatic-business should be done.

Second-hand is actually about discoverability. Therefore, gamifying the experience and making it interesting and attracting buyers and sellers is indeed the third pillar.

Daniel Eisenberg: Nowadays, people don’t necessarily stay in the office all the time, but occasionally want to take off comfortable clothes and dress up, so your view of mixing high-end luxury goods with everyday items becomes more important and you start to go out again, for example Enjoy restaurants, bars and shows.

When you view fashion as a dynamic industry, consumer behavior and taste can change rapidly. What are the challenges of staying innovative, and how can technology help?

Max Bittner: I think the beauty of our business model is that we are a market. Therefore, although fashion tastes change very quickly, at least I don’t have to worry about it. Our sellers are people who buy these products based on the fashion they followed in this particular month, week, year, or decade.

Our main focus is indeed to stay ahead of the changing consumer expectations in terms of technology. Technology is indeed our weapon to reduce friction between buyers and sellers. If you consider a successful market, it is purely defined by the liquidity it provides for sellers. Nothing else, is it? If you think about our business, the only thing we need to do is-of course it's very simple-but the only thing we really need to do is to constantly eliminate any friction points that hinder this liquidity. If you think about technology, I mean, this is what we do. We prioritize ways to reduce friction and make it easier for sellers to sell and buyers to buy more easily. The ideal is for them to meet somewhere in the middle in the most effective way.

Daniel Eisenberg: I ​​see that the company is hiring technical talent recently.

Max Bittner: It will never stop.

This is a beautiful thing I have learned in the past ten years. There are many platforms out there. I feel guilty about it like most people. We spend a lot of money on marketing and coupons. But in the end, most of the time was borrowed. The best investment is still better technology. Almost every decision I make revolves around whether I spend marketing expenses today or make the product better and more meaningful? And I often persuade myself to postpone more marketing for two or three months, but to improve the product in the process.

Daniel Eisenberg: How hard is it to get the best engineers and data scientists to join a company like yours?

Max Bittner: Of course it is very difficult, especially now in the post-COVID world. Changes in work styles and workplaces have made the fight for the best engineer more difficult. Many companies now only offer the concept of working from home and working anytime, anywhere.

Therefore, the battle for talent is as difficult as ever, and with the additional complexity that many people recruited now may have never met, it is really difficult to keep the culture and values ​​of the business aligned over time.

What we really care about and what we can really set ourselves apart is that we are very clear about our mission and vision. This vision is a bigger vision, it's not just to be the best company in XYZ. But this is actually about being a company that solves the world's biggest problem that we will face in the next century, namely global warming. We really try to emphasize that this is very real in the way we do things, because it involves everything we do. This information is very good in terms of recruitment.

Daniel Eisenberg: Let's talk about luxury brands and your business. I think one of your first tasks when entering Vestiaire is to build a broader and deeper relationship with luxury brands, many of which are said to have been cautious about the resale market even a few years ago. I would like to know how these relationships can develop for your company, considering the potential for value enhancement and life cycle expansion and the worries about cannibalization risks. I know that you have recently received an investment from Kering Group, which owns several luxury brands such as Gucci and Balenciaga. So I think these relationships have improved to some extent.

Max Bittner: Yes, the bottom line is that there is no second-hand fashion without first-hand fashion. By definition, we cannot ignore the existence of brands, because if they don’t exist, we don’t exist, right? So I want to learn about these brands. I want to understand their needs. I want to see how we can help each other. This has always been the core pillar of Vestiaire, not just mine.

In the past ten years, when we established these businesses with some of our brothers and sisters, I think that for most of these luxury brands, this is not really the primary consideration, because they really don’t have to. But in the past three or four years, these brands have had to face our existence.

As always, I think all these brands react differently. For the past two years, I have really been thinking, well, here we are. We will not leave. We do not depend on the brand. But saying, "I don't care what the brand wants or do" is not the right way. Because the brand has something absolutely priceless to me. Of course, in addition to their first-hand products, there is also their knowledge of what people actually have in their wardrobes. I always talk about this treasure hunt. There is also this cave of Alibaba, but that cave of Alibaba needs to be filled with wardrobes all over the world. For me, the best way to understand what's in these closets is to work with brands, and with online and offline retailers.

So almost from the day I started, I have been exposed to these brands. I said, "This is what we are trying to achieve. This is what I want to learn from you." But then I really focused on the fact that what can I give them back? Especially when it comes to luxury goods, I try to emphasize that we are by no means threatening or cannibalizing their sales. On the contrary, if anything, we are educating consumers on the fact that they should buy less and buy more, right? By buying less and buying more, the whole concept of buying assets instead of consumables can help justify the high prices of many of these brands. So I really took the time to say, "We are just paying tribute to your brand because you can resell these products in 6, 12, 18 months."

In the past two years, I have worked really hard and have been trying to find a way we can cooperate. It is obvious to reduce friction points in the market. Topics such as identity verification, such as your deposit speed. Of course, there is also an encouragement cycle. If you sell the old, you can buy new things and get incentives.

Daniel Eisenberg: They have become more receptive?

Max Bittner: In the past two years, the speed at which all these brands have embraced this new reality is shocking. You know, from the real doubts and worries two years ago to today, it is incredibly open. Yesterday I had lunch with the CEO of one of the biggest brands and he said he liked it. He said it will take time. This is not something you do overnight, because there are so many things to do. If you want to do this, you do it right. But they are very open.

The truth is, it doesn't matter what the brand wants or what I want. This is what consumers want. Consumers expect brands to take sustainable and responsible behavior today. Once you really start paying attention to details, if you want to take sustainable action, it's hard not to solve second-hand problems.

So I think when they came to this field they knew that there was almost no way to bypass it. But they also really realize that this is not a choice between difficulties and obstacles. This is actually a good thing for them.

They are very excited. They are still trying to figure out what their position is, what is our position. There is a value chain that can make money. Everyone wants to make sure they get a fair share or more.

Daniel Eisenberg: You are already working with certain brands or retailers to help them launch their own resale products. Customers can come in and sell products online and then get store credit. I have heard the term "resale as a service". Is this part of the business growth you can foresee?

Max Bittner: Yes, absolutely. We have established an excellent partnership with Alexander McQueen. We have established a good partnership with e-commerce company Mytheresa. They encourage existing customers to sell old products and buy new ones in exchange. It can help them increase customer loyalty. It helps us obtain supplies. This is really a win-win situation.

Daniel Eisenberg: Let's talk about branding and marketing. You mentioned earlier that in the end, technology is the real weapon, and in the long run, spending so much money on marketing and coupons in the early days does not seem wise or productive in retrospect. But I think to some extent, branding and marketing are still crucial to Vestiaire's success. I just want to know the specific brand identity you created for Vestiaire.

Max Bittner: This is actually a very, very timely question, because in the past two years, we have not actually spent a lot of money on branding and marketing, because as I mentioned before, I made a lot of mistakes.

I spent a lot of money on marketing in Southeast Asia, much more than I proudly admit, most of which were not spent so effectively. So when I came here, I really wanted to do it differently.

Before I start to increase my marketing efforts, I really want to build a great user experience, a great customer experience, and a really effective sticky product. This has been very effective in the past two years. What we really focus on is what I call engagement: daily active users, monthly active users; how often you get people to come back every month; push notifications; how do you use the app? How do you make the app exciting, and people will come back and open the app every day? For things like making an offer, this is a negotiation tool; or notice of a price reduction. So everything we do, including increasing traffic, is related to the product. We spend almost no money on marketing, and the customer acquisition rate is incredibly low.

In fact, we didn't start to say until now, well, we have been growing very well. But if we start to spend more money on brand promotion, what can we do? And, as you said, not only do you need to make sure that you are different from your competitors, but you also need to make sure that the broader new customer base understands this. So about how we promote the brand to become stronger, how we clarify the whole theme of our brand is actually something we are really starting to work on now.

Now we are considering establishing a large-scale luxury brand, which is really inspiring and attractive because the business is indeed organic. If you think about the past ten years, thanks to Fanny and Sophie, many things are based on word of mouth and public relations.

So I can't give you so many secrets, because we are still trying to figure it out. But hope that in the next three to six months, you will understand what I mean.

Daniel Eisenberg: But do you think that despite your approach, Vestiaire has organically developed a specific brand identity in some ways?

Max Bittner: Yes, the brand itself is very clear. I think people really know what Vestiaire stands for. This is mainly because the vision and mission have been very clear and have not really changed. When I came in, I didn't really challenge what I did before, because I really believed in that vision and mission. More is to use my experience in technology, products and logistics to better implement this vision.

The brand has indeed been built around this incredible community of fashion lovers. And this business is really established by people who love this industry. They established this business organically with the core of Parisian fashion industry, so that the community is the industry.

In addition, they also added the entire concept of trust. How can you do that, these transactions not only happen locally, but also on a national, regional, and global scale in a trustworthy way? They built this concept around advanced authentication, which continues to evolve as technology advances. Then sustainability is the last item that we have been increasingly emphasizing over the past few years to ensure that people understand that this is more than just getting people beautiful fashion. But they are also doing this in an incredibly sustainable way. By doing this, they did a good job.

Daniel Eisenberg: I ​​want to ask you about internationalization, Max. You are now a global company with customers in 80 countries. How important is the localization of products and services to ensure success in these markets, especially in terms of expansion in Asia and the United States? What are the main differences between different markets?

Max Bittner: Again, a very timely question. The business is a European business. It has developed from France, then into the United Kingdom, and then into other parts of Europe. We launched the United States about four or five years ago, and launched Asia about two or three years ago.

But when we talk about Asia, so far, it is really only talking about Hong Kong, Singapore and Australia. Until about a year and a half ago, our U.S. business was mainly very sophisticated and educated fashion lovers from the U.S. They were knowledgeable and consciously buying from Europe because they could get things that were not available in the U.S. for sale in the U.S. Supply from Europe. We are only now really starting to promote the local seller group.

When you consider our opportunities in Asia, you really need to specify what Asia is because it is a very different geographic area, not a country. Of course there is Southeast Asia, I know. But there are mainly large markets, China, Japan and South Korea. We are not there yet.

So I think localization is the absolute key to opening up these markets. It may be more important in Asia than in the United States. I think the training and e-commerce of American consumers are very similar because the platform we use is the same as the platform people are used to in the United States and Europe. Whether it is Amazon or eBay, everything is very similar, but in Asia, there are huge differences.

Of course China is China, and the development of e-commerce is very different; obviously, social media plays a different role. Korea is a completely different animal. Even marketing there is different, because there is no Google. There you can use KakaoPay and KakaoTalk through Naver. Then Japan is another ecosystem completely again. Therefore, especially when you are viewing these Asian markets, you absolutely must localize everything.

It is the front end, the application, and the functionality that people expect. Live chat or video streaming is an extremely important topic in Asia. This is a payment service. There are different expectations for logistics services. People have different expectations about what second-hand goods are. So this is a completely different game.

Daniel Eisenberg: Does certification have similar problems in all markets, or are they different?

Max Bittner: It's completely different. I think the degree of trust in second-hand goods depends on your location. I don’t think the point-to-point model of direct shipping we provide will not work in China, and consumers can choose not to perform identity verification. Yes, let us be very honest. I think if we go to China in a different way, we need to think about our business.

Daniel Eisenberg: When it comes to sustainability, how important is it in your own operations? I think you and the founder have set a date for complete carbon neutrality, and you hope to be certified by Company B at some point.

Max Bittner: Actually, we have only recently obtained B Corp certification, and we are very proud of it. This is a very difficult process, which lasted more than a year. I think what is particularly important about B Corp is that it does involve all aspects of the business, not only the environment, but also social and governance topics.

From my beginning, we were forced to reflect on ourselves very much there. The way we lead, the way we think about compensation, the way we think about diversity, the way we think about governance. Of course, there are all environmental issues. We definitely want to encourage many of our peers and other young start-ups, especially unicorns, to do the same. I think we are the first unicorns to achieve this goal.

Using GMV and growth to grow a big business and achieve unicorn status is the same thing as all these things. But I think that today, it is really necessary to establish an enterprise with real purpose and real social responsibility from the very beginning. I really want to challenge many of my CEOs and founders and let them follow the same path. So we take it absolutely seriously. This is not about greenwashing. I think in this day and age, you can no longer get rid of green drifting.

Daniel Eisenberg: Since you joined Vestiaire, what is the biggest challenge you have to overcome as the company grows?

Max Bittner: Obviously I entered a new business. I brought different perspectives, different people. But I don't think this is a difficult challenge, because I really worked with two still entrepreneurial founders Fanny and Sophie. I work very closely with them. Sophie sat next door to me. Fanny lives in Hong Kong, but I talk to her several times a day. We conduct most meetings together. We are really partners. So this cultural challenge is huge. But we did a great job together.

I think the hardest thing is COVID. More importantly, how do you lead the team through COVID?

It was really difficult to do e-commerce in Southeast Asia ten years ago. I thought I had a thick skin, I thought I was going through a very difficult period. But I think COVID just surpassed everything in a different way because it is too psychological. I mean, when we are in firefighting mode, it is less than the first six to eight weeks when COVID strikes. We must ensure that business continuity is guaranteed, we need to ensure the health of our employees, and we need to suddenly switch to working from home. This is this hard-core execution mode. Vestiaire’s executive team, we made three calls every day, one at 8:00 in the morning, the next at 2:00 in the afternoon, and the last at 10:00 in the evening, every day for more than two months.

But what really started to become difficult was at the beginning of this year, especially around April or May, when we had already entered and exited two or three blockades. We are still waiting for vaccination, so it is much safer to stay at home. Then there are these young team members, who have been at home many times alone, and many people who were hired after the pandemic started but never really met anyone.

It is very difficult to maintain their enthusiasm remotely. I find it difficult to inject the same energy as before COVID because I can walk up to someone in front of the coffee machine and say, "Hey, you are doing well." Or when you see someone in a bad mood. When you are in the office, you will see someone on the opposite side of the floor hanging slightly or walking too slowly. This is obviously something wrong. You can do something, you can intervene. But you just cannot see this on the computer screen.

At the same time, I also started to feel tired, with doubts, questions, and motivational loopholes. All the time, I have been working hard and continue to promote the company, and this company has begun to suffer real losses. This becomes very difficult.

All my peers I have spoken to are the same. I mean, people are tired. It's really hard to continue. Entrepreneurship is difficult. It is even more difficult to establish a startup in the e-commerce field, because e-commerce is 24/7.

Daniel Eisenberg: Obviously, those early experiences in your career are on par with COVID, but are they helpful when you have to deal with self-doubt or just feel overwhelming obstacles?

Max Bittner: I try to remind myself that things will never be as good as you think, and things will never be as bad as you think. For example, if you raise a lot of money, I would say, "Well, there will be bad days soon." When you have very bad days, you will remind yourself that there will be good days soon. So you start to become more calm, I think this is part of the experience.

Daniel Eisenberg: If you have to give advice to entrepreneurs who have moments of self-doubt or have experienced some kind of loneliness, this is what you will tell them, try to stay calm and not be high or low?

Max Bittner: Yes, I think this is a very good method, especially for me. I think everyone needs their first advice. I am a very emotional person. I am really excited, I am really angry or sad. So telling myself that I need to stay calm is tailored for me.

I think the first piece of advice I can give any founder is that it will persevere. You just need to power up. It boils down to working very hard and finding someone who can work very hard with you. And make sure that the work you are doing is really closely related to your vision and mission, and you know exactly what it is. Because in these very difficult and unforgiving moments, you need to be very clear about why you wake up in the morning and why you want to do it. This has nothing to do with valuation. This has nothing to do with growth.

In my very difficult moments, when I tried to encourage my team, I just reminded them, "Let's make sure our children can walk in the forest, so let us work harder." It's a bit manipulation, I admit.

Daniel Eisenberg: This is not a big problem.

Max Bittner: No big deal.

Daniel Eisenberg: Let's save the earth.

Max Bittner: This is between us and doom.

Daniel Eisenberg: The last question: When you consider Vestiaire 5 to 10 years from now, where do you want it to be as a company, and how would you judge its success at that time?

Max Bittner: You save the best for last. Where do I hope to be in five to ten years? I hope that in terms of what I want the company to do, it is where I am today. I think the vision should still be the same, and our enthusiasm for pursuing the vision is the same.

Will it be in a different environment? Yes. Will the size be different? hope. Will we have some different colleagues? I guess so. But I hope some people are still there today.

I don't want it to be so different. I like going to work. I like working with colleagues. I like to solve problems and try to get better every day. Just bring that little bit closer to the never-ending and always-moving target.

I don't wake up in the morning thinking, "I'm single-handedly saving the planet from bad luck." At a very nostalgic moment, after drinking three bottles of wine, maybe I would think so. But I don’t blow so much smoke on my ass.

But this is really about the educational journey. I am now a heavy user of Vestiaire; when you open the app and go to my profile, @maximilian, this is what I sold last year, 50 or 60 items I sold. Once you start buying and selling second-hand goods yourself, you will become more educated. You have a better understanding of the meaning of consumption. You can learn more about what you can do.

The best example I use is that once I became an active customer of Vestiaire, it became increasingly unsustainable for the rest of my life. I am a German. Germans like their German cars and drive too fast on the highway. I will look at the motor, it will make a lot of noise and all these things. But I can't do that anymore. Like, I can’t sit in a gasoline car and pretend it’s important. You start to change your other behaviors. You start buying an electric car, and you start to make other decisions in different ways.

So for me, success really lies in our use of Vestiaire, driven by what we do every day, to continue to educate consumers on what they can do or how they should do it. And help them hope to get more education not only in the retail or fashion consumption field of this world, but also in other aspects of their lives.

Daniel Eisenberg: That's great. I think I took up more than enough of your time. So I want to thank you again, Max, you joined us today and spent so much time talking about Vestiaire Collective and sustainable fashion more broadly. As you grow, the entire online resale space and the fashionable circular economy continue to develop, and it will be interesting to continue to observe.

Max Bitner: Great. Thank you for having me.

Daniel Eisenberg: That is our podcast. As always, I want to thank our great McKinsey on Startups production team-Molly Karlan, Polly Noah, Sid Ramtri, Myron Shurgan and Katie Znameroski.

Finally, thank you for listening. We hope you will come back to watch McKinsey’s future series on startups.

Maximilian Bittner is the chairman and chief executive officer of Vestiaire Collective. Daniel Eisenberg is a senior editor in McKinsey's New York office.

Never miss any insights. We will send you an email when a new article on this topic is published.

Subscribed to {PRACTICE_NAME} email alerts.